http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=66628&in_page_id=34

Surely it's obvious to anyone with half a brain that the design of that bag is based on the traditional Indian use of the swastika? I'm sure if someone wanted to design a nazi handbag it would look a bit different to the one in that photo, anyways...

Just goes to show that there are some subjects where knee-jerk reactions are the only form of response you can expect. It certainly proves how much of a hiding to nothing Crispian was on when he touched upon the subject in the past.

someone wrote im jewish so it offends me
im jewish and i know its the use of the indian peace sign..
i guess igronant people don't any better

quote:

Originally posted by Piper At The Gates Of Dawn:
someone wrote im jewish so it offends me

In a way it annoys me more if anything that someone Jewish would say that. Just because so often Jewish people (quite rightly) urge people to never forget the lessons of history. But to say that and then go and show wilful ignorance of a thousand years or so of another (equally devout) culture seems like double standards in a way.

At the end of the day a swastika is nothing but a geometric pattern of intersecting lines. Any offence it causes can only come from the context. And in this context there is no reason for offence to be taken.

Interesting find drykid, thanks for sharing.

Oh God though, really thorny issue this one. Maybe in an ideal world everyone would be able to pick and choose the associations they take to hold to certain symbols as they please. And only get offended if the swastika is used in certain contexts. Crispian (so he claimed) came to the realisation that some symbols are so entrenched with meaning (in a particular overall cultural context) that any attempt to go against that dominant context will fail.

For what it's worth I think I am with you, and with Crispian's original vision, of insisting that we not let anyone have a monopoly over the meaning of any symbol. All it would take would be for the press and society at large not to pander to reactions like people being offended at the sight of it, and telling people to deal with it and try and accept new contexts for the symbol. But I guess there's no capital in that, and a lot of capital in 'outrage'.

The whole swastika issue aside...
THAT BAG IS SO FUCKING UGLY!

Vivi's right, it is a hideous bag. What's with the giraffe arses?!! That's more disturbing, not the swastika!!! Evil giraffes!

quote:

Originally posted by unhappy Alisha!:
The whole swastika issue aside...
THAT BAG IS SO FUCKING UGLY!

lol!!!

Heh I didn't expect this to turn in to a discussion about handbag aesthetics :P

quote:

Originally posted by 2-J:
All it would take would be for the press and society at large not to pander to reactions like people being offended at the sight of it, and telling people to deal with it and try and accept new contexts for the symbol. But I guess there's no capital in that, and a lot of capital in 'outrage'.

I hear what you're saying, but it's not even like you're asking them to accept a new context, only the original one. If it's new to them then that's down to their lack of education. And why should we pander to their ignorance / arrogance? The same thorny issue came up in "India with Sanjeev Bhaskar" on TV the other night, where Bhaskar showed some people looking through a religious book that featured prominent swastikas. But he handled it just right imho in that he acknowledged that it might look odd to western eyes, but at the same time made no attempt to apologise for it or condemn it.

And I think that what irritates me most is that by suppressing the image itself, you allow the positive existing context to be consumed by the latterday objectionable one. And that's a victory for the nazis ultimately, surely? They stole the image to abuse for their own dodgy purposes, and yet now we're letting them keep it...

quote:

Originally posted by KulaBeth:
Vivi's right, it is a hideous bag. What's with the giraffe arses?!! That's more disturbing, not the swastika!!! Evil giraffes!

Better not let Pitry or Susheel see it then. It'll start the whole Giraffe thing again!

But I have to say that even reading good old Dennis Wheatley, he tells us in "the Devil Rides Out", that the swastika is an ancient symbol of protection. It is just unfortunate that it ended up being the symbol of a totalitarian regime. You have to wonder at the mentality of whoever designed the bag though. Clearly they are not all there to begin with. Not only is it clearly the ugliest bag I have ever had the misfortune to see, but they must have known they were going to ruffle a few feathers with that symbol.

Undoing the negative associations of that symbol in the Western world will take a little more than an ugly handbag - unless you go and seek the information for yourself, the fact that the Nazis abused an ancient symbol of long life and protection is a relatively obscure one. Of course, by obscure, I mean that in all the times I studied the Nazi regime over the course of my education, we did not touch on the origins if the symbol, and if we did, it was only in passing, and certainly not in any depth.

I agree, it shouldn't be allowed to continue, but I don't think a handbag is necessarily the gentlest introduction to a generation who has never known the symbol in any other way. I doubt many on here would be as aware of the swastika's origins as they are were it not for Kula Shaker.

quote:

Originally posted by Exodia:
Undoing the negative associations of that symbol in the Western world will take a little more than an ugly handbag

True, and in any case the makers of that bag are hardly trying to change attitudes; their main interest is in exploiting a traditional symbol to sell questionable handbags. So it's not like I have any great sympathy for them. My point I guess is the change needs to come in how we respond to such things. As long as it's always along the lines of "Oh my god! A swastika!" then it'll always be the same.

quote:

I agree, it shouldn't be allowed to continue, but I don't think a handbag is necessarily the gentlest introduction to a generation who has never known the symbol in any other way. I doubt many on here would be as aware of the swastika's origins as they are were it not for Kula Shaker.

Hmmm well that's true too; it's inevitable that KS fans would be better informed about this than the average person in the street for obvious reasons. Maybe I'm being harsh in calling people ignorant for being unaware of such things. But that just makes it more important that when these things come up that there is a sensible discussion, which is all I'm asking for really. It would be nice in this case, for instance, if the store's response attempted to try and explain why an item like that might be considered perfectly inoffensive when it was designed, but they opt for abject grovelling instead. Even the Telegraph article reporting this case makes no mention of the historical use of the swastika, so that anyone reading it who isn't familiar with the history of the symbol would think that this bag was just an attempt to shock and nothing else. Which I'm fairly sure wasn't the case at all.

Oh, I very much agree - in many ways, it shows an intense lack of respect for another faith's symbolism that we don't at least acknowledge its origins! Imagine the uproar if another regime stole, say, the Star of David, and we thereafter remembered it in the pejorative sense! It just wouldn't happen.

The store, and the press should have handled it a lot better - I should write an article about it really, and flog it on journalism.co.uk, try and spread a bit of rationality. I've spent a small fortune on listing myself on there, so I might as well get some use out of it!

It's just like the 'Deathly Hallows' sign in Harry Potter in the way that people have diferent associations for it (lol, how sad am I?)

Strange, if you go to the BBC News website now, their story about this handbag is listed at no.1 in the "most read" section at the bottom of the front page. Which is quite bizarre considering it's actually an old story from September.

quote:

Originally posted by drykid:
Strange, if you go to the BBC News website now, their story about this handbag is listed at no.1 in the "most read" section at the bottom of the front page. Which is quite bizarre considering it's actually an old story from September.

No doubt something to do with people searching for more about Nick Griffins talk at Oxford..